More Thoughts on Machinima: Pre-Production

Dogma · 02-18-2008, 08:40 AM

Hello again!

Couple of you may remember me from a couple weeks back- I'm Paul, the guy who's currently attempting a couple of machinima projects for my senior capstone. I've posted here before with some thoughts and questions on machinima and its' community, so I'm back again with another topic I'd like to get some feedback on.

During my research into the machinima community, I've noticed that there appears to be a stronger emphasis on the critique of finished machinima projects then there is on pre-production. You can create a machinima, release it on youtube/stage6/or this website, and people will comment on it, give you negative or positive reviews, etc. But when it comes to creating machinima in the first place, it can be harder to get advice on what you specifically have in mind.

I recently brought this up in a up in a thread over at Machinima.com and I figured I'd start up the conversation here as well. I'd like to ask you all, as fellow machinimators, what do you think about the concept of a website dedicated mostly to the pre-production of machinima?

The general idea is that this site would be a kind of central hub of sorts where machinimators of various skills could go to find tutorials, guides, and articles on the manipulation of game engines used for machinima (as well as general machinima theory). The hope would be to help new machinimators move past experimental and basic machinima (like Halo movies or Gmod slide shows) and towards more 'professional' productions, like those seen at this very website, and to give veterans a chance to bounce ideas and concepts off each other, or learn how to manipulate game engines they haven't tried yet.

From the discussion so far at the Machinima.com's forum, a couple of people believe that there already exists a section that covers it (Namely the Machinima 101 section on Machinima.com's website). Also, another thing mentioned is that a pre-production oriented site would be in a way redundant as most tutorials and guides exist as help/sticked threads at various game-mod related forums (such the forums over at facepunchstudios.com), and that amateur machinimators would probably still ask the same questions over and over regardless of any stickied threads, faqs or the like.

So does anyone have any thoughts, comments, or flame regarding this idea?

Fat Man Jim · 02-18-2008, 09:16 AM

i take by post production you mean editing?
if so, there are sites out there, but more related to film as a whole and not just machinima.
don't think it would happen, a post production site just for machinima, i mean

Otto · 02-18-2008, 01:23 PM

Ah, good to see you again.

Quote:

Also, another thing mentioned is that a pre-production oriented site would be in a way redundant as most tutorials and guides exist as help/sticked threads at various game-mod related forums (such the forums over at facepunchstudios.com), and that amateur machinimators would probably still ask the same questions over and over regardless of any stickied threads, faqs or the like.

So does anyone have any thoughts, comments, or flame regarding this idea?

Well yes. Even here, there are constant repeated questions and topics on 'How to make Movies' and although we have a Help and Tutorial section that doesn't answer everything, the thread posters barely look. Not only has the same threads been submitted here before, but everywhere on the internet. Facepunch Studios is obviously a good place for resource and answers.

There are many forums and message boards that are popping up much more and are becoming more popular. Machinima is certainly getting heard, but someone new to it doesn't need to find the most professional looking site, register, and ask how to start. They must search many places all over and silently read over other peoples thoughts.

Dogma · 02-18-2008, 06:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fat Man Jim

i take by post production you mean editing?
if so, there are sites out there, but more related to film as a whole and not just machinima.
don't think it would happen, a post production site just for machinima, i mean

I meant before all that editing, or even filming- I'm talking more about a site with tutorials or guides on how to use Face-poser, Hammer, Crysis' Sandbox2, Halo's Forge, etc, etc.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Otto

Well yes. Even here, there are constant repeated questions and topics on 'How to make Movies' and although we have a Help and Tutorial section that doesn't answer everything, the thread posters barely look. Not only has the same threads been submitted here before, but everywhere on the internet. Facepunch Studios is obviously a good place for resource and answers.

There are many forums and message boards that are popping up much more and are becoming more popular. Machinima is certainly getting heard, but someone new to it doesn't need to find the most professional looking site, register, and ask how to start. They must search many places all over and silently read over other peoples thoughts.

That's kind of what I'm trying to figure out though all this discussion. If there was a website (or a section on a pre-existing website) where all this material was consolidated and sorted for easy use so that amateur machinimators wouldn't necessarily have to dig through all those forums (people could just point them to the site/section or through word of mouth), would it be a benefit to the machinima community as a whole or essentially 'just another machinima website'?

Otto · 02-19-2008, 12:27 AM

Hmmmm, I'm not sure if I understand you there, Dogma. How exactly would it benefit anything? You mean making the community larger or the site more popular or something?

Dogma · 02-19-2008, 04:41 AM

By a benefit to the community I mean giving machinimators access to the information they need to make machinima beyond just basic videos in Halo or Garry's Mod. Another discussion I took part in over at Machinima.com was whether or not machinima was in 'decline'. Most felt it wasn't, but felt that there were quality issues arising because of how easy it is to make a Halo video compared to trying to make something as complicated as say, Combine Nation.

Personally I feel that there's actually a kind of 'stagnation' in creativity and quality of machinima, not so much because there's a lack of creative machinimators, but possibly there are machinimators out there who don't know how to do anything beyond the basics, and have a hard time experimenting or searching for the advice they need.

My theory and I guess the big question I'm asking is if it was easier for machinimators to access information on how to create something beyond basic Halo/Gmod videos, would they find the creative drive to do something more original or complex? And while yes, there are help threads, tutorials and articles out there with that information, I'm essentially wondering if accumulating all info that in one place so it's not so spread out would be a benefit or would it just be redundant?

SgtPadrino · 02-19-2008, 04:49 AM

There's nothing at all hard about finding out how to make machinima. Everything I've ever found out in concerns to simple how-to's was through a simple Google search. Hell, most of what I know is pretty much entirely self taught.

This is the straight truth: if all someone is willing to do is post a single question thread expecting somebody else to write a fucking essay about the ins and outs of Premiere or After Effects while you hold their hand, telling them what to do every step of the way, they will never create anything worth two shits. Period. That's the mentality of everyone that wants to emulate Lit Fuse, and everyone asking stupid goddamned questions about how to make quality work (God forbid they ask something anymore specific than "duuuude howd u get those sweet camera anglez???") then give up as soon as they realize that you've got to put effort in to get quality out. It doesn't matter if there was a fucking website, because they'd all still expect you to dig it up and link it for them - and hell, even then they'd just browse through and think "lulz taht program costs liek a hundred dollars fcuk that." If somebody really cares enough to make some shit, they'll take the whopping five minutes out of their day to get their own start. Once they're off on the right foot, hell I'd be all for helping them; they're at least willing to put something into it. For everyone else: why bother?

Dogma · 02-19-2008, 10:23 PM

Very well put, SgtPadrino, you bring up some good points. and I'm beginning to get the impression from most of the discussion I've had thus far with members of the machinima community (The few who have actually engaged me on this matter, for which I thank you all immensely) that the lack (apparent lack, mind you, this is just my opinion and feel free to tell me why you disagree) of pre-production support in the machinima community isn't so much due to the lack of guides, tutorials or information but mostly because of who makes up the machinima community- A handful of dedicated creative machinimators and a veritable horde of half-interested amateurs.

This does bring to mind another question: What's going to be the next big thing for machinima?

NielsGade · 02-19-2008, 10:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dogma

This does bring to mind another question: What's going to be the next big thing for machinima?

Celebrities.

Mozza · 02-19-2008, 10:35 PM

SgtPadrino pretty much summed up my thoughts on this kinda thing. People have got to start putting more effort in to make quality work.

I learnt everything I know in Vegas near enough by myself, and some kind help from Steinmann back in 2006/2007, and it's how everyone should learn.

02-18-2008, 08:40 AM	#1
Dogma Join Date: Oct 2007 Location: Maine Posts: 36	More Thoughts on Machinima: Pre-Production Hello again! Couple of you may remember me from a couple weeks back- I'm Paul, the guy who's currently attempting a couple of machinima projects for my senior capstone. I've posted here before with some thoughts and questions on machinima and its' community, so I'm back again with another topic I'd like to get some feedback on. During my research into the machinima community, I've noticed that there appears to be a stronger emphasis on the critique of finished machinima projects then there is on pre-production. You can create a machinima, release it on youtube/stage6/or this website, and people will comment on it, give you negative or positive reviews, etc. But when it comes to creating machinima in the first place, it can be harder to get advice on what you specifically have in mind. I recently brought this up in a up in a thread over at Machinima.com and I figured I'd start up the conversation here as well. I'd like to ask you all, as fellow machinimators, what do you think about the concept of a website dedicated mostly to the pre-production of machinima? The general idea is that this site would be a kind of central hub of sorts where machinimators of various skills could go to find tutorials, guides, and articles on the manipulation of game engines used for machinima (as well as general machinima theory). The hope would be to help new machinimators move past experimental and basic machinima (like Halo movies or Gmod slide shows) and towards more 'professional' productions, like those seen at this very website, and to give veterans a chance to bounce ideas and concepts off each other, or learn how to manipulate game engines they haven't tried yet. From the discussion so far at the Machinima.com's forum, a couple of people believe that there already exists a section that covers it (Namely the Machinima 101 section on Machinima.com's website). Also, another thing mentioned is that a pre-production oriented site would be in a way redundant as most tutorials and guides exist as help/sticked threads at various game-mod related forums (such the forums over at facepunchstudios.com), and that amateur machinimators would probably still ask the same questions over and over regardless of any stickied threads, faqs or the like. So does anyone have any thoughts, comments, or flame regarding this idea?

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02-18-2008, 09:16 AM	#2
Fat Man Jim Join Date: Jun 2007 Posts: 100	i take by post production you mean editing? if so, there are sites out there, but more related to film as a whole and not just machinima. don't think it would happen, a post production site just for machinima, i mean

02-19-2008, 12:27 AM	#5
Otto Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: Auckland, New Zealand Posts: 437	Hmmmm, I'm not sure if I understand you there, Dogma. How exactly would it benefit anything? You mean making the community larger or the site more popular or something?

02-19-2008, 04:41 AM	#6
Dogma Join Date: Oct 2007 Location: Maine Posts: 36	By a benefit to the community I mean giving machinimators access to the information they need to make machinima beyond just basic videos in Halo or Garry's Mod. Another discussion I took part in over at Machinima.com was whether or not machinima was in 'decline'. Most felt it wasn't, but felt that there were quality issues arising because of how easy it is to make a Halo video compared to trying to make something as complicated as say, Combine Nation. Personally I feel that there's actually a kind of 'stagnation' in creativity and quality of machinima, not so much because there's a lack of creative machinimators, but possibly there are machinimators out there who don't know how to do anything beyond the basics, and have a hard time experimenting or searching for the advice they need. My theory and I guess the big question I'm asking is if it was easier for machinimators to access information on how to create something beyond basic Halo/Gmod videos, would they find the creative drive to do something more original or complex? And while yes, there are help threads, tutorials and articles out there with that information, I'm essentially wondering if accumulating all info that in one place so it's not so spread out would be a benefit or would it just be redundant?

02-19-2008, 04:49 AM	#7
SgtPadrino Join Date: Jul 2007 Posts: 179	There's nothing at all hard about finding out how to make machinima. Everything I've ever found out in concerns to simple how-to's was through a simple Google search. Hell, most of what I know is pretty much entirely self taught. This is the straight truth: if all someone is willing to do is post a single question thread expecting somebody else to write a fucking essay about the ins and outs of Premiere or After Effects while you hold their hand, telling them what to do every step of the way, they will never create anything worth two shits. Period. That's the mentality of everyone that wants to emulate Lit Fuse, and everyone asking stupid goddamned questions about how to make quality work (God forbid they ask something anymore specific than "duuuude howd u get those sweet camera anglez???") then give up as soon as they realize that you've got to put effort in to get quality out. It doesn't matter if there was a fucking website, because they'd all still expect you to dig it up and link it for them - and hell, even then they'd just browse through and think "lulz taht program costs liek a hundred dollars fcuk that." If somebody really cares enough to make some shit, they'll take the whopping five minutes out of their day to get their own start. Once they're off on the right foot, hell I'd be all for helping them; they're at least willing to put something into it. For everyone else: why bother?

02-19-2008, 10:23 PM	#8
Dogma Join Date: Oct 2007 Location: Maine Posts: 36	Very well put, SgtPadrino, you bring up some good points. and I'm beginning to get the impression from most of the discussion I've had thus far with members of the machinima community (The few who have actually engaged me on this matter, for which I thank you all immensely) that the lack (apparent lack, mind you, this is just my opinion and feel free to tell me why you disagree) of pre-production support in the machinima community isn't so much due to the lack of guides, tutorials or information but mostly because of who makes up the machinima community- A handful of dedicated creative machinimators and a veritable horde of half-interested amateurs. This does bring to mind another question: What's going to be the next big thing for machinima?

02-19-2008, 10:35 PM	#10
Mozza Join Date: Jun 2007 Location: England. Posts: 556	SgtPadrino pretty much summed up my thoughts on this kinda thing. People have got to start putting more effort in to make quality work. I learnt everything I know in Vegas near enough by myself, and some kind help from Steinmann back in 2006/2007, and it's how everyone should learn.